Protests

[Lucaio]

Right, I have never been to a proper protest before and I am thinking of attending one just see what it's like, get the "experience" kind of thing.
The point of the protest isn't something I STRONGLY believe, but the reason of the protest seems to make sense to me.

Just wondering, anyone here been to any protests? What were they like? Any tips/advice?

[Mac-d]

what is the protest for? and if you dont strongly believe in it why would you protest?

[Lucaio]

Originally Posted by Mac-d

what is the protest for? and if you dont strongly believe in it why would you protest?

$cientology.

I want to go for the experience more than anything.

[Larkino]

What kind of protest do you mean?

I went to the against the war on iraq march

[wolf]

I remember everyone in school using the war in iraq as an excuse to ditch class. We had a "protest" in the school atrium where we all had a big sit down rofl. So stupid. I think the people who really have a damn were the ones who stayed there after the bell rang for lunch!

[barcelonic]

Originally Posted by Lucaio

$cientology.

I want to go for the experience more than anything.

Lol, are you serious?? You're protesting a religion?

[Larkino]

Originally Posted by barcelonic

Lol, are you serious?? You're protesting a religion?

lets face it... it's not really a religion

[barcelonic]

Originally Posted by Larkino

lets face it... it's not really a religion

this is what puzzles me beyong belief. i honestly cannot see how scientology is any more absurd than islam, christianity, judaism, sikhism etc....

so everyone thinks tom cruise and travolta are like complete nutjobs cus they believe in a religion created by a science fiction writer - yet people believing in some superman who lives in the clouds and can see and hear all things at once, ye now that makes a whole load of sense?!?

Edit: Having seen Omairt's post, lemme just say im not out to cause offence here, thats y i mentioned all major religions not just one. But hopefully ppl can at least see my point

[omairt]

I feel a massive debate coming on...

[Larkino]

Originally Posted by barcelonic

this is what puzzles me beyong belief. i honestly cannot see how scientology is any more absurd than islam, christianity, judaism, sikhism etc....

so everyone thinks tom cruise and travolta are like complete nutjobs cus they believe in a religion created by a science fiction writer - yet people believing in some superman who lives in the clouds and can see and hear all things at once, ye now that makes a whole load of sense?!?

I'm not going to get in a discussion, because you'll probably win, but thats just my view.

I just think its more of a thing celebs can do to get back in the tabloids

[barcelonic]

Just to stay on topic tho, why are ppl protesting scientology Luciao? They dont really harm anyone?

Reminds me of the Romans getting all uppity about Christians, and people moaning to Ofcom about things they dont like on TV when they can just change the channel, lol

[the_saint]

Originally Posted by barcelonic

Just to stay on topic tho, why are ppl protesting scientology Luciao? They dont really harm anyone?

I agree with what you said before. The underlying principle of Scientology sounds out there but there's no reason why it couldn't be true so most objective and intelligent people don't criticise it on that basis.

But to say they don't really harm anyone is about as far from the truth as you can get!! I had to read some of their official stuff on a course I was doing and it is horrific what they preach.

Take a look at some of these sites for more
Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology
YTMND - The Un-Funny Truth About Scientology
Whilst they might not be the most objective sites generally, but most of what they say is factually correct.

[Cefca]

Originally Posted by barcelonic

Just to stay on topic tho, why are ppl protesting scientology Luciao? They dont really harm anyone?

Scientology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[barcelonic]

Originally Posted by the_saint

I agree with what you said before. The underlying principle of Scientology sounds out there but there's no reason why it couldn't be true so most objective and intelligent people don't criticise it on that basis.

But to say they don't really harm anyone is about as far from the truth as you can get!! I had to read some of their official stuff on a course I was doing and it is horrific what they preach.

Take a look at some of these sites for more
Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology
YTMND - The Un-Funny Truth About Scientology
Whilst they might not be the most objective sites generally, but most of what they say is factually correct.

Ye i know what your saying, and I actually have a 30min video on my computer of an induction which was leaked via WikiLeaks. Very sinister, but i like to believe that essentially the people involved have a choice to become a scientologist

But this is religion for ya, pretty much all religions have at one point or another been responsible for crimes far worse. Some US fraternities have surprisingly sinister induction and punishment rites but people don't protest them. And boot camps in America for teens who misbehave - unspeakable things go on at some of these camps and at least 40 people are known to have died as a result, yet they remain unregulated and people don't protest them.

[wolf]

I think the whole Scientology thing is a bit nuts, but i wouldn't protest against it, as much as i wouldn't protest against Christianity (which is in my view equally nuts (when it comes down to it, they do basically worship a zombie)).

People should be allowed to believe in whatever they want, i'm fine with that ideology so long as they don't try to force those beliefs on others...which is kinda why i can say i dislike christianity, if i had a pound for the number of times i've had some religious nut job come up to me and tell me i'm going to hell for my "sins" unless i "accept jesus into my life" or when i've walked through town and heard someone shouting through a loudspeaker about God i'd be a fairly wealthy man. In contrast, not once have i ever been approached by any other religious person trying to spread the word of their beliefs.

As far as my experience goes Scientology falls under this 2nd category so i say leave them be.

[the_saint]

Originally Posted by barcelonic

i like to believe that essentially the people involved have a choice to become a scientologist

They use very powerful psychological techniques to pray on the weakest and vulnerable in society, on that basis how much of a choice they actually have is highly debatable.

What about their choice to leave? Once you are in they require to cut all ties to your friends and family. Once this has been done anyone can be very easily be brainwashed. Why would you need to do this if they really have a choice?

And did you read all the stuff that happens if you try to leave?

Even if you choose to join up (which I disagree with) that doesn't mean the "religion" is OK. You can kill or torture anyone who doesn't agree with it? All psychology is evil?

The Charities Commission investigate their application for charitable status in the UK and where refused. The CC investigate applications pretty damn thoroughly and they concluded that (a) it was a commercial enterprise and not a charity, and (b) it's objects are not chartiable or benevolent. If the CC say that that's pretty damning.

They tried to infiltrate the US government to obtain information to intimidate their critics.

Sure religions in the past have done bad things, but this one was founded 30 odd years in much more enlightened times. No heads of any religion have ordered or been involved any of the stuff scientologist have in that time.

[the_saint]

Originally Posted by wolf

People should be allowed to believe in whatever they want,

So if I believe that you should not be allowed to own property, would that be OK? WHat about if I decided that this was so important that I should steal everything you own? Would that be OK? What if I punished you afterwards by going against my beliefs by kidnapping you and leaving you to die? Would that be OK?

What if someone believed that if you disagree with them you can be tortured and killed? And if they followed through with that?

It's not the belief that does the harm, but the actions that follow and these are what people protest about.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by the_saint

So if I believe that you should not be allowed to own property, would that be OK? WHat about if I decided that this was so important that I should steal everything you own? Would that be OK? What if I punished you afterwards by going against my beliefs by kidnapping you and leaving you to die? Would that be OK?

What if someone believed that if you disagree with them you can be tortured and killed? And if they followed through with that?

It's not the belief that does the harm, but the actions that follow and these are what people protest about.

Of course that's not ok, thats just ridiculous to even compare belief in a religion to belief in causing harm on others being ok.

And when religious beliefs harm others OF COURSE ITS NOT OK i never said that ever.

[barcelonic]

Originally Posted by the_saint

So if I believe that you should not be allowed to own property, would that be OK? WHat about if I decided that this was so important that I should steal everything you own? Would that be OK? What if I punished you afterwards by going against my beliefs by kidnapping you and leaving you to die? Would that be OK?

What if someone believed that if you disagree with them you can be tortured and killed? And if they followed through with that?

It's not the belief that does the harm, but the actions that follow and these are what people protest about.

What if I forbid you to use contraception? What if you'd been raped by your father and were refused permission to have an abortion? What if you are required to follow the will of your husband, and he can divorce you but you cannot divorce him? These are well-known religions and i see no difference. Im about as atheist as they come and my opinion is that all religions are manipulative and should be abolished. (Thats just my view btw.)

As for your comment on enlightened times, its curious how many people in the UK and US and some of Europe believe we are living in a more civilised time, when really the majority of the planet is still living as they were hundreds of years ago. Sharia law still exists, poverty still exists, war still exists etc...
Im sure many people will label me a theorist, but I don't believe that the goals of even today's Western government are any different to what they were at the time of the British empire. The US created the CIA to essentially travel the world doing whatever is necessary for the US to continue being a superpower, having learned from the mistakes of fallen empires.

And there are psychological reasons for joining many cults, religions etc.. The majority are brainwashed by society, ie being born into a religious family makes you religious, people follow trends and popular opinions. I feel strongly that this is unacceptable but I look at it in the same way I make my decisions to choose one charity to donate to from another: there are many charities I myself will never donate to even though I think they do important work - because there is usually a far more important cause to support. In this way the same can be said for people who are manipulated into becoming scientologists - there are far worse things going on involving people not given any choice at all, and Id sooner lose sleep over them than people who join Scientology simply because for whatever reasons, it seems like the best choice for them at the time.

So to summarise I do actually agree with you and I hate the Scientologists, but I hate the Vatican far far more, and a large number of other religions & institutions that have a far bigger influence than a small albeit growing force of Scientology. If any protests go ahead, it seems as though it was perhaps inevitable given all of the publicity they've had, but there are a million problems which require our attention and are far worse.
I like seeing certain charities being supported despite me never donating myself for the reasons above, so I guess it is good that Scientology protests are going ahead, but I for one would never actually attend one because if I was going to protest there are more serious and important causes to support.

[adammcg]

I'm tempted to get into a humanist v religion debate but i'll try and avoid it. I think the main gripe with scientology is not so much that others don't want people to believe freely but that it is trying to get around legislation to become tax exempt (ie removing revenue from the coffers of the Queen) even though it charges the public to become members and requires them to attend paid lessons etc without any benefit for society. I'm sure that's against the law. Together with the deaths and harm associated with it, I think its a just cause but i've no problem with people believing freely, just not trying to gain at the expense of the taxpayer.

I do have to take exception to several of your comments barcelonic, I'm not particularly religious but i'm not an atheist either. I suppose I waver between deism and agnosticism but it seems that you defend your belief system of atheism with an almost religious zeal, something I'm sure you would criticise. Not to put too fine a point on it, I think your attack of religion needs to be examined. Perhaps we could open a separate debate here on exceem?