Could their really be a God?

[ElectroGirl]

I personally have no problem if someone disbelieves in religion. They just need to say it is their opinion and if possible, come up with an explanation behind it. What I despise is when someone makes a statement which completely idiotic and disrespectful to other peoples views. That's what winds me up to the core

[williamblah]

Originally Posted by Schism

I think there's something out there that the human brain cannot comprehend to even imagine.

I just noticed this gem. If we cannot comprehend to imagine, then why do people try. I am quite happy not understanding what happened before the big bang, and not understanding what happens after I die. Simply because I know that there is no possible way anybody can understand these things, ever, and so any attempt to understand it will be based in fiction and not fact, as there can never ever ever be any fact.

This is a conclusive argument as to why religion is wrong when it says this happens or that happens. Whether something happens or not, it is simply impossible to know and understand. Other than a need for hope, I do not understand why rational people would choose to believe that anything in particular happens after we die, and I know I would certainly like to base my beliefs in reality, and not extort them because I need hope.

[Madex]

If you actually wanna know more about it, I reccomend watching "Zeitgeist The Movie" it's a documentary film, you can watch it here Zeitgeist, The Movie - Remastered / Final Edition

We all know that Jesus has performed miracles, was born by a virgin and was a descendant of God.. Watch Zeitgeist and you'll know that he is not the only one..



Also, watch the movie, The Fourth Kind.. It's hella scary but to me that actually proves life outside earth..

And I too got a question..
It is said by many, that animals such as dogs, cats etc do not have souls.. Then if they do not have souls, how can we have souls? We are animals (mammals) too.. Wth..

[eonbar]

Originally Posted by Madex

It is said by many, that animals such as dogs, cats etc do not have souls.. Then if they do not have souls, how can we have souls? We are animals (mammals) too.. Wth..

its kinda like saying animals can feel pain s plants must be able to becuase they are also living.

we are animals but that doesn't mean that animals are us if you get me? many argue that we posses reason which animals don't. sure they can learn, and judge but true reason is different. reason therefore is the factor which separates us from animals.

...not sure if i believe that or not, but its the general thesis put forward for such a counter argument to yours....

[Madex]

Originally Posted by eonbar

...not sure if i believe that or not, but its the general thesis put forward for such a counter argument to yours....

Very nice choice of words pal
Yeah, I do believe it because I was taught to believe it..
It just feels weird..

[Douf]

Originally Posted by az87aris

But it's too the point lol

Children are made to believe in the likes of the easter bunny, santa claus etc, none of those really excisted and to me god is just the same. It's totally Make-believe.

You mean santa isnt real? :o i feel so dissapointed now

[Zombie]

Yes, i believe that there is a God out there who loves everyone and created everyone. If I really think about it, I don't know about any of y'all but, I just know that he's there. How could ANYTHING have been created without a higher being? How could there just be a chemical reaction or whatever the Big Bang was if there was nothing before that?

[tronsmith]

Zombie, if there is a god who loves everyone, why is there so much poverty, famine, death, wars, crime (the list goes on and on)?

As I said before, I beleive that if there is a god he doesn't care, I think that's fairly obvious in all honesty.

I don't mean to sound rude but the two words "or whatever" show that you don't really have an understanding about the big bang theory.

"How could ANYTHING have been created without a higher being?"

Who created that higher being? And then that one (and so forth)? By saying that you must think that there are infinite gods.

This the means that a god is just something/someone who creats something because it itself was created, therefor are we not gods ourselves?

[Maxx]

Originally Posted by tronsmith

As I said before, I beleive that if there is a god he doesn't care, I think that's fairly obvious in all honesty.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm an atheist myself, but you could believe that God is watching over us, but not interfering, allowing us to live out our lives as we see fit.

One way I would describe it, is how in nature documentaries, when filming carnivorous animals, they don't intervene to help the prey, to stop it from dying, they let nature take it's course. Maybe God is doing the same?

[eonbar]

Originally Posted by tronsmith

Zombie, if there is a god who loves everyone, why is there so much poverty, famine, death, wars, crime (the list goes on and on)?

it amazes me how people still use this argument. the problem of evil is incredibly fragile and is regarded by many, including many athiests, to be an inconclusive argument for denying gods existence...

..defiantly stronger counter arguments out there..

[tronsmith]

Originally Posted by eonbar

it amazes me how people still use this argument. the problem of evil is incredibly fragile and is regarded by many, including many athiests, to be an inconclusive argument for denying gods existence...

..defiantly stronger counter arguments out there..

I have never used it as an argument against the existance of god. I beleive that there may be a god but not how we perceive him/it.

@Maxx:

I wouldn't class myself as an athiest, never the less if he/it is watching and not doing anything about all the terrible things that happen in this world, then he/it isn't the god that I would worship. My view could possibly change if my following statement is true:

One possibility (if god does exist) is that because he is such an advanced being he doesn't even comprehend us as important, similar to how we think of lesser species like insects. If he lets us do as we please and we eventually kill ourselves off then it's no big deal because we are insignificant. However if we manage to come together as a race and pull through the bad times, not use our technology to kill each other but use it to advance our civilisation, he then may take note and see we are not inferior and start helping us because we deserve/have eant it.

This would be especially true if he has created many civilisations, he would use his energy helping those who have earnt it and let the useless species die off.

[williamblah]

Originally Posted by tronsmith

never the less if he/it is watching and not doing anything about all the terrible things that happen in this world, then he/it isn't the god that I would worship.

Ahh, but that is irrelevant. We aren't debating whether you would worship god if he/she/it did exist, we are simply debating god's existance.

Regarding the argument by Zombie (I think?) about how we don't understand how the Big Bang could have happened without a higher power, there is absolutely no need to make something up to explain things that we don't understand.

I don't understand how lots of things work. I am quite satisfied with the knowledge that I don't understand. I don't feel the need to create a hypothesis with no scientific basis at all to explain it. As someone famous said one time, to be wise is to know that we know nothing. Or something similar.

[Jay86]

I've been reading through this thread with great interest. I see it when I log on but I have deliberatley avoided it because I get so riled up by this arguement. All of my family, bar me and my brother, believe in God. My mum and one of my aunts are HUGE believers. Go to church multiple times a week, go to meetings, Bible class, watch the God channel- the other day I helped my mum get involved in this religious group discussion on Skype!

I think she has more or less given up on actively trying to convert me but I know that she feels that at some point in my life I will have some kind of epiphany which will ultimately lead me to find my faith and become a believer. I'm a bit of a "see it to believe it" type person and short of God knocking on my door, introducing himself and explaining in great detail why he's let the world go to sh*t, I can't see myself being converted.

I guess to some extent I think that there may well be something out there but not the God that's potrayed in the Bible because that God comes across as a real kn*b. Someone commented that if there is a God but he's just observing. I don't get that, if you make something then surely when it goes wrong you're going to do your best to fix it. Plus he seemed to like interfering according to the Bible. God didn't like the way people were living except for Noah so God spits the dummy out and sends a flood to wipe out everyone- I guess that's one way to fix it... We're supposedly not meant to put him to the test but it's ok for him to send Abraham up a mountain to kill his only son Isaac after he and his wife had tried for YEARS to have a child to prove he believed in him- didn't let him go through with it but what kind of a God does that?

I've asked my mum and my aunts in the past if they think God is perfect to which they replied "Of course". How could someone so perfect create a world where things like what happened in Haiti happen to those who can handle it the least? How could he create a place where people live in poverty and surrounded by disease and war? They try to say that much of this is down to God creating free will. Well if he's so perfect then surely he should have been able to predict that free will was perhaps not such a good idea.

I've had some interesting debates with my family- mostly my mum and my aunt- and they have generally failed miserably to come up with any arguements that dispute any I put forward- and this is after they have gone off to consult passages from the Bible. Don't even get me started on whether or not heaven exists and the criteria for entry.

[eonbar]

Originally Posted by Jay86

I don't get that, if you make something then surely when it goes wrong you're going to do your best to fix it.

if you had a kid and you raised him (for arguments sake) by telling him stories, teaching him about what is fair, just right, good etc and then left him to his own devises to grow up, in a autonomous and free way would you do it?

Put it this way, if your parents controled everything you did all the time, gave you no sense of freedom, didn't let you fall over, graze your knee, hurt, etc would you like it? if you lived in a world where no one died, there was never anything 'bad' that happened would you appreciate all the good things in life?

....also, do you ever see the unforseeable things which bad things bring about? the World Wars for example sped up the rate at which technology, medicine etc cam out. its been argued that when you weigh up the enjoyment (from small pleasures such as radio, television, plastic, movies etc to Large pleasures like surviving open heart surgary, morphine in child birth etc) that there is a net benefit. Now you cold go and say wait! why could god not just do this automatically, but then you fall under the lack of autonomy again... you could say what about gross pain and suffering, but again its due to a lack of autonomy.

theres also the belief that as humans we 'fell' from absolute goodness (adam/eve and the apple story) and that since then we are simply being tested. you look around you and you think OMG, this life is so bad, cancer, haitii etc, but looking back at your life when you were young and ignorant didnt you think OMG my life is so bad, i have no money, didn't get picked for the team etc etc etc. Its only when you can compair it to an after last everlasting and perfect that you potentially could realise that this life really isn't that bad!

Originally Posted by Jay86

Plus he seemed to like interfering according to the Bible

the bible is a book of parables. much like jack and jill, tortoise and the hare etc. jesus definatly existed, and historyian athiests mostly agree on this. there was a person called jesus who upset the religious authority at the time and set up christianity in some form or another. its well documented. whether or not he was gods son or a nutter is a completly different question? and can never be proved... all i know is that the teaching and guidance it produces far outweighs the potential for lack of it. its built everything around you. politics, economics, morality etc (or potentially this has been pro evolutionary factors needed for social conhesion and survival of the species i dont know???)

Originally Posted by Jay86

How could someone so perfect create a world where things like what happened in Haiti happen to those who can handle it the least? How could he create a place where people live in poverty and surrounded by disease and war?

see above


NOW: im not necessarily saying i believe these things, but i definatly think your parents are right. how old are you? have you experienced much in your life? have you ever really been tested etc? these things definatly change your perspective on life/certainties...

this has been probs the worst counter argument i've ever written. its scatty, ill formulated and probably ful of holes. woulda looked into it more and formulated a better argument, but this is a forum ffs, so wasn't gonna happen

[DesertHuntr]

I think that god was an invention to control people didn't Henry the 8th change the religion of England from Catholics to Protestant just so he could divorce his wife? Also there is alot of evidence including evolution and other things that goes against religious beliefs or suggests that it is impossible for there to be one and then there is who created god... So no I don't think that there is a god but if you wish to believe in it then it's your choice.

[mcgrou]

I dislike the idea of God being omnipotent. Omnipotent is contradictory, simply by definition. Can God create an unbreakable object? Can God break this unbreakable object? Neither question can both by answered yes, meaning that God is not omnipotent, as is the Christian belief.

Epicurus time:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[ElectroGirl]

Like some of said before, it too amazes me who uses the argument of 'If God is real, why would hey let horrible things happen to us?'.

What is belief then? Can someone explain their personal definition on it?

[keitaro258]

Originally Posted by mcgrou

I dislike the idea of God being omnipotent. Omnipotent is contradictory, simply by definition. Can God create an unbreakable object? Can God break this unbreakable object? Neither question can both by answered yes
Epicurus time:

You cant understand how he would do it but he can what seems impossible for you to understand he can do, he is after all God

[mcgrou]

Originally Posted by keitaro258

You cant understand how he would do it but he can what seems impossible for you to understand he can do, he is after all God

But if he cannot break the object, he is not omnipotent. If he can break the object, then he cannot create an unbreakable object and is thus not omnipotent. For anything to be omnipotent is simply not possible.

Originally Posted by ElectroGirl

What is belief then? Can someone explain their personal definition on it?

A belief is an opinion, despite lacking proof. Not sure what this has to do with the "Why does God let bad stuff happen to us" argument :3

[eonbar]

Originally Posted by mcgrou

I dislike the idea of God being omnipotent. Omnipotent is contradictory, simply by definition. Can God create an unbreakable object? Can God break this unbreakable object? Neither question can both by answered yes, meaning that God is not omnipotent, as is the Christian belief.

i think the basic idea with the omnipotence paradox is that that statement yu said is in itself is completly meaningless. you are using logic to try and disprove god, but by exactly the same logic the phrase 'cannot create' is itself meaningless when used in the same sentance as God is omnipotent.

logical impossibilities and inherant contradictions within the statement itself makes the statement meaningless.

Asking God to create an object which he cannot break requires creating two things—an ability, and also a weakness: The ability to create the object and the inability or weakness of not being able to break it. The paradox essentially implies that God would no longer be omnipotent because He has a weakness, when the definition of omnipotence is not having a weakness...

Counter argument i can see that your probably thinking "hang on, this doesn't really follow because if god is omnipotent than he should surely be able to defy natural laws of paradoxes etc and do two things simultaneously"

BUT have you ever that that If God can do absolutely anything, then God can remove his own omnipotence. If God can remove his own omnipotence, then God can create an unbreakable object, remove his own omnipotence, then not be able to break the object. This preserves the belief that God is omnipotent because God can create an object that He couldn't lift it. Therefore in this theory God would not be omnipotent while not being able to lift the stone. this to me seems incredibly logically permissible, in the same way that your argument was logical to you...


Counter argument once again i can see that your probably thinking "hang on, this doesn't really follow because if god is omnipotent than he should surely be able to defy natural laws of LOGIC etc"

but if this is the case then your argument falls thru completly becuase you are trying to disprove God by arguing from logic, which you potentially (if you follow my argument) have just argued he can break...

fundamentally omnipotence simply means being all powerful and being able to do whatever it is that you want to do. if this is the case for God, then if he wants to make an unbreakable object he does so, but then he cahnages what he actually wants to do and becomes all powerful again and breaks the object. the two things don't need to co-exit at the same time, but merely god needs to want what he wants, when he wants to want it ...

you move sir