Fox Hunting

[TheDoctor]

Originally Posted by bmh16

Yeah, because you just said a one line response and didn't explain your reasons when everyone else is. Grow up...

And btw, for your above response haven't you read what Moofassa has said. Clearly not by that.

That explains everything i needed it to.
and i am grown up thanks, but i dont come on the internet to be Grown up, i come on here to relax and chill.

[arcticfox]

Ok boys and girls.......the purpose of this section is to debate a subject, not to have a go at each other...so, let's keep it that way, huh?

You have to respect other peoples opinions, even if you don't agree with them.

[bmh16]

Originally Posted by arcticfox

Ok boys and girls.......the purpose of this section is to debate a subject, not to have a go at each other...so, let's keep it that way, huh?

You have to respect other peoples opinions, even if you don't agree with them.

Clearly, i will respect any one's opinions who actually explains why. Those who state that fox hunting should be banned with no reason is those i have qualms with as they aren't respecting the likes of moofassa who has taken a lot of time out to explain the pros of fox hunting. I don't necessarily mind if you are against it generally, it's just the ignorance a lot show on the subject. I mean i saw a group on facebook which was called 'Back the Ban'. The ignorance of some of the remarks there was ridiculous and some were putting up phone numbers of pro fox hunters to basically spam on a public group with thousands of members. NOT ON, there is no respect those people show. Which was the last straw and hence why i made a post on it!!! Obviously the picture of the group was some cute looking fox cub too showing more bias!!!!

[FurbtasticM]

Originally Posted by bmh16

Clearly, i will respect any one's opinions who actually explains why. Those who state that fox hunting should be banned with no reason is those i have qualms with as they aren't respecting the likes of moofassa who has taken a lot of time out to explain the pros of fox hunting. I don't necessarily mind if you are against it generally, it's just the ignorance a lot show on the subject. I mean i saw a group on facebook which was called 'Back the Ban'. The ignorance of some of the remarks there was ridiculous and some were putting up phone numbers of pro fox hunters to basically spam on a public group with thousands of members. NOT ON, there is no respect those people show. Which was the last straw and hence why i made a post on it!!! Obviously the picture of the group was some cute looking fox cub too showing more bias!!!!

The Doctor eloquently and properly described why he finds fox hunting abhorent. Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you or doesn't write chapters and chapters, ignorant?

[TEMPLE3188]

As Ben keeps referencing Moofassa's post as the answer to why fox hunting should be legal, I thought I would come back, quote and answer how I feel on each question as he failed to pick up my views on what Moofassa had to say through my other posts, just to clarify once and for all that we are acknowledging your arguement.

Originally Posted by Moofassa

Can I just reiterate what I said on the first page. I have noticed that people often form an opinion VERY quickly on this issue. Banning Fox-Hunting has many implications - many that you wouldn't think about.

I invite you to consider the following:


1)Hunts play an active role in conserving the rural landscape - and have done so for generations. This is not just about controlling fox numbers, but maintaining the country in a natural state, hunt funds keep hedgerows and thickets in good condition and prevent them from being lost to fields/farms/development. Many species live in this important habitat, which is being lost all over the country.

The current rural landscape is being invaded with the growing number of people being populated, are you implying that a hunt will fix this too? Fox hunting helps raise funds for good causes, prostitution also puts food on the table for some families, does that make it acceptable?

2) A Fox is not always killed. Hounds occasionally lose the scent, or the Fox may escape. The attraction of the hunt is not in the kill, but in the chase.

Surely this contradicts the previous point about preserving the rural landscape? The fox only gets away if they're smart and lucky enough, don't try to tell me the hunter has to make a decision whether they kill the fox or not when they're chasing it, the fact that they are chasing means they've already made up their mind what their intentions are. If the attraction is only in the hunt, why kill it? Why is people complaining about hunting foxes then? There wouldn't be such a debate if it was just about the chase.

3) Current law now means that foxes have to be snared or shot. Shooting/snaring in the hands of inexperianced people can be much more inhumane than hunting with appropriate dogs. Properly trained dogs will kill by biting the neck - quick and relatively painless compared to being wounded or badly snared and dying slowly.
Of course some dogs are not properly trained and some foxes do die painfully while hunting, but this is a minority of hunts and they should not represent the majority.

Dressing up how a fox is killed is ridiculous, should murderers who say they made their victims deaths quick and painless receive any leniency on their prosecution? Of course not, it's not a topic that can be dressed up so please don't try.

4) Continuing from my previous point, many people who hunt have the greatest regard for animal welfare, e.g. stables owners, some farmers, and it is because of this they favour the beagle pack method rather than shooting.

Their own animal walfare is what they have regard for, they don't care about animals, which is why they are farming them to begin with, don't get me wrong I am not saying this is wrong, I am just making it clear that these hunters don't have regard for animal warfare, they have regard for their business profits at the cost of these animals lives rather than increase their own security for their business.

5) Some people think foxes don't need to be controlled but they do, many wildlife reserves e.g. RSPB have to cull foxes in sanctuaries to prevent the birds from being wiped out. Would it be better that an experianced hunt control numbers or that inexperianced bid sanctuary rangers are entrusted to the task?

I have already addressed the 'controlling' of foxes previously, I am all for preserving as many species as possible, but not at the cost of other animals lives. Nature will take it's course and new breeds will be discovered that can combat & protect them from predators, it's called evolution.

6) Not all hunters are upper class. This is a stereotypical view of hunting, and if you believe that hunting should be banned because upper class people do it then that is absurd. This is 21st century Britain, and not only have class lines blurred, but they should not shape our opinons. Not everyone who hunts is "upper class", not everyone that is "upper class" hunts.

Class lines blurred, what a ridiculous remark, there will always be the separation of classes, always. Let's be honest, the majority of those who hunt are upper class or farmers, you can't deny this, the reason farmers hunt is because they foolishly don't see any other way to protect their livestock, the majority reason the upper class hunt is a number of things, participating in a sport not much can afford to do on a regular basis, to feel superior, to maintain distance between the classes.

7) From a legal standpoint, there is inconsistancy in the law. Why precisely has huntign been banned, when other forms of hunting remain - such as deer stalking and fishing?

Deer stalking I see where your coming from, this also needs banned and is complete cruelty as well, that is another whole debate so I won't go into it. As far as fishing goes your joking right? Fishing usually results in the fish being cooked and eaten, to provide food for those up the food chain, or as a good sport, most fisherman catch the fish for the thrill of the sport and return the fish to the water, surely you know this? Fishing doesn't compare to fox or deer hunting whatsoever.

8) If you are an animal rights protester, you will find that there are many more pressing issues than hunting that demand your attention. What about recent stories that staff in "gold standard" abertoires were torturing the animals prior to their deaths? Fox-hunting, when done properly is not nearly as cruel.

So what your implying is that your aware that fox hunting is cruel? Just not as cruel as what happens in gold standard, protesters can only fight for what is available to see.

Please, read my points carefully and fully before making a reply (it took a while to type this and I'd prefer that my time hadn't been wasted, no-one seemed to read or take notice of my first comment). I do not "hate" animals. and I want discuss this issue in a mature way.

I have explained the reasons for my opinion, and feel free to disagree with me if you want - just explain the reasons for it and i'll be happy to debate.

We have been looking at this debate from your point of view Ben, you can't just blatantly declare that we haven't, we have counter-acted your arguments with valid if not better arguments as the opposition, so please stop making excuses.

NOTE: Again with the over dramatic punctuation '!!!!'?

[bmh16]

Originally Posted by FurbtasticM

The Doctor eloquently and properly described why he finds fox hunting abhorent. Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you or doesn't write chapters and chapters, ignorant?

You will find he didn't explain his posts until this page, i actually missed the post that he explained it but regardless he wasn't backing his opinions up at first.

Furb, you've heard what Moofassa said. There's a difference between opinion and fact which is what TheDocotr is implying more for me!!

[Moofassa]

Originally Posted by TEMPLE3188

As Ben keeps referencing Moofassa's post as the answer to why fox hunting should be legal, I thought I would come back, quote and answer how I feel on each question as he failed to pick up my views on what Moofassa had to say through my other posts, just to clarify once and for all that we are acknowledging your arguement.



We have been looking at this debate from your point of view Ben, you can't just blatantly declare that we haven't, we have counter-acted your arguments with valid if not better arguments as the opposition, so please stop making excuses.

NOTE: Again with the over dramatic punctuation '!!!!'?

I'm not going to spend ages arguing my views on this thread right now - simply don't have the time during the school week but would like to return to it when I have a chance. Cheers for reading my post at least, and I will get back to you.

Just to let you know - the examples I provided - deer stalking and fishing were just illustrative examples to show how you could view the issue from an impartial legal standpoint - why should one thing be banned when it is similar to another. Like i said - I will get back to you when I have a moment.

Cheers for reading - will continue this debate when I'm not swamped with essays!

[FurbtasticM]

Originally Posted by bmh16

There's a difference between opinion and fact

You mean, in so far as a fact is an opinion that you happen to believe? Both sides of the lobby have "facts" but they are miles apart.

So, how many foxes were culled by hunts each week/month/year before the ban. Hard stats is what we need here!

[tronsmith]

I understand bmh16, if there is a predator mauling your livestock the ONLY way to sort this out is by:

1) You and a load of your toff friends getting on horses,
2) get a huge pack of dogs
3) Chase and killing a few foxes throughout the day
4) Come back at the end of the day after killing a few foxes and not really sorting out the problem at all...

A bigger, safer fence/enclosure is certainly not more suitable...

[SometingStu]

Originally Posted by tronsmith

I understand bmh16, if there is a predator mauling your livestock the ONLY way to sort this out is by:

1) You and a load of your toff friends getting on horses,
2) get a huge pack of dogs
3) Chase and killing a few foxes throughout the day
4) Come back at the end of the day after killing a few foxes and not really sorting out the problem at all...

A bigger, safer fence/enclosure is certainly not more suitable...

I don't quite think that's what Ben was saying, he was saying that Fox Hunting shouldn't be banned because it helps farmers and other people in the long run. It's more of a casual sport, but unlike football it has some use.

Moofassa's post was great and I respect everything that he said. Fox hunting is more complicated on the inside, and to be honest the worlds fine the way it is. We should be sorting out things that are more important such as war, recession etc...

[bmh16]

Originally Posted by SometingStu

I don't quite think that's what Ben was saying, he was saying that Fox Hunting shouldn't be banned because it helps farmers and other people in the long run. It's more of a casual sport, but unlike football it has some use.

Moofassa's post was great and I respect everything that he said. Fox hunting is more complicated on the inside, and to be honest the worlds fine the way it is. We should be sorting out things that are more important such as war, recession etc...

Yes exactly, fox hunting is such a big thing when in theory there are far more important things in life.

[SometingStu]

Originally Posted by bmh16

Yes exactly, fox hunting is such a big thing when in theory there are far more important things in life.

I'm not quite sure whether that was supposed to be sarcastic or you were trying to make a point about life and death. Well here's the thing. Foxes aren't doing as much damage as war, and I don't think that they ever will do.

The world isn't in a sorry state because of foxes at all is it? Fox hunting has been, gone, come again and so on, and to be honest it hasn't really changed anything. Don't fix what isn't broken.