Fox Hunting

[FurbtasticM]

Originally Posted by bmh16

My point exactly as it has happened with us as said! Sick creatures.



The argument against killing a pet that is ridiculous!! It's not like you keep a fox and get attached to it is it Either way any dog which attacks livestock shouldn't be allowed to live anyway and a fox is so the same thing.

What gives the right for us to choose? Uh, i guess you must be a vegetarian then, as it would be pretty ironic if you ate fish or any animal form now wouldn't it! Ok, i just read that it is ok to kill for food. You are sidetracking mate. What is the difference between shooting foxes to keep their numbers down to protect farming livestock, to just us eating for pleasure especially with the wastage in this society. A lot of people probably leave half of it and if no one wasted then the amount of food we would need would be significantly less and so the slaughter of less animals would be happening. I never waste food, and i hate it whenever i see waste and when i go to restaurants and see people leave half their plates i feel very annoyed as the wastage in today's society is sickening. Getting besides the point there i guess but it still has a certain validity in a thread like this as due to the amount of wastage we wouldn't need to slaughter as much animals as we do for food then would we! Comparing a human's life to a animal's life was also a poor argument as you are basically saying it is ok to kill anything for food. You don't seriously kill people to eat do you!?!?

Ben, you started this thread about hunting, not the morals of killing animals for food.

Most people would agree that vermin need to be controlled/culled. What you have failed to answer is why hunting is necessary if there are far more efficient ways of doing that?

[Moofassa]

Originally Posted by FurbtasticM

Ben, you started this thread about hunting, not the morals of killing animals for food.

Most people would agree that vermin need to be controlled/culled. What you have failed to answer is why hunting is necessary if there are far more efficient ways of doing that?

Read my post - I hope I've provided a few new points and I want to have a mature discussion rather than allowing this thread to decay into argument/alternative issues, which it seemed to do a bit on the previous page.

Cheers

[FurbtasticM]

Originally Posted by Moofassa

Read my post - I hope I've provided a few new points and I want to have a mature discussion rather than allowing this thread to decay into argument/alternative issues, which it seemed to do a bit on the previous page.

Cheers

It's an emotive subject so is bound to get some argumentative replies.

So, you can cull by shooting and retain the benefit that the hunt brings to the countryside by using a decoy/drag. Why chase the fox?

[kevan321]

Originally Posted by Moofassa

Can I just reiterate what I said on the first page. I have noticed that people often form an opinion VERY quickly on this issue. Banning Fox-Hunting has many implications - many that you wouldn't think about.

3) Current law now means that foxes have to be snared or shot. Shooting/snaring in the hands of inexperianced people can be much more inhumane than hunting with appropriate dogs. Properly trained dogs will kill by biting the neck - quick and relatively painless compared to being wounded or badly snared and dying slowly.
Of course some dogs are not properly trained and some foxes do die painfully while hunting, but this is a minority of hunts and they should not represent the majority.

4) Continuing from my previous point, many people who hunt have the greatest regard for animal welfare, e.g. stables owners, some farmers, and it is because of this they favour the beagle pack method rather than shooting.


I have explained the reasons for my opinion, and feel free to disagree with me if you want - just explain the reasons for it and i'll be happy to debate.

Although I still disagree with it, I like the fact that you've actually addressed the issues people have been stating.

I feel that the only reason to kill an animal is for food or if it's a cull. In the case of foxes, I don't imagine they're likely to become part of our diet. If it's to get their numbers down, there are more efficient less painful ways of doing it.

You make a good point in 3, it's something only properly trained people should be allowed to do, that only seems fair.

[Moofassa]

Originally Posted by FurbtasticM

It's an emotive subject so is bound to get some argumentative replies.

So, you can cull by shooting and retain the benefit that the hunt brings to the countryside by using a decoy/drag. Why chase the fox?

The main enjoyment people get out of the hunt comes from the chase, and the skill that is required in this.

This is much like the main attraction in deer stalking is the stalk itself, when you must put a lot of care, effort and skill into getting into a postion whereby the kill can be achieved.

With a drag/decoy, the hunt is faster and it removes the element of skill required, as the hounds pick up the scent instantly. Without this attraction, hunt memberships fall, and the hunt loses money.

Many hunt members make personal efforts to maintain the countryside, however the money that the hunt earns through its subscription has the greatest effect of all, conserving and preventing the land from being developed/altered for other purposes. Loss of members reduces this income and causes a situation when a hunt may stop in an area. Who will conserve it then, when it is more profitable for it to be used for other purposes?

If foxes are to be killed at all to control numbers, why not in this manner, which has the greatest effect on conserving the hedgerow habitat, rather than culls by shooting?

The fact remains that not everyone is an expert shot, and many foxes are unnescessarily injured by shooting, when a properly trained dog is an expert. Expert packs kill foxes instantly and relatively painlessly. I emphasise properly trained dogs - as I said in my other post the correct breed and training means a pack kills with a bite to the neck every time, which is instant, whereas lead shot from a shotgun can often wound.

To summarise, why should the responsibility of controlling fox numbers and land conservation be placed in the hands of others, when the hunt can fulfill those roles the best?

[bmh16]

Originally Posted by FurbtasticM

Ben, you started this thread about hunting, not the morals of killing animals for food.

Most people would agree that vermin need to be controlled/culled. What you have failed to answer is why hunting is necessary if there are far more efficient ways of doing that?

I was trying to figure out how to structure and how to say it but basically Moofassa sums it up. Excellent argument mate and i hope people can listen to that argument and take heed these hunts are not automatically really bad whether you still disagree with it or not!

And my cousin has been hunting and been to various horse events as she used to own a horse that used to be worth a lot (thousands of pounds). Sure there are loads of upper class people there but doesn't make them horrible people automatically, just very posh as you need a lot of money to own a horse as you will know. Ftr, my cousin are not at all upper class.

[TheDoctor]

Originally Posted by bmh16

Sick creatures.

Yes, thats the exact name for Animal hunters.

[Moofassa]

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

Yes, thats the exact name for Animal hunters.

You are entitled to your opinion, and as Furbs said this is an emotive issue for many people, but considering the effort I and others took in writing out the reasoning for our opinions, could you perhaps read them and provide your own rather than making a provocative, generalised statement?

Explain to me how a statement like that contributes to productive discussion? If you want to fight, take it up somewhere else. If you feel passionately about Fox-Hunting and want to give your views that's fine, I only ask you give your reasoning.

[bmh16]

Originally Posted by Moofassa

You are entitled to your opinion, and as Furbs said this is an emotive issue for many people, but considering the effort I and others took in writing out reasoning their opinions, could you perhaps read them rather than making a provocative, generalised statement?

Explain to me how a statement like that contributes to productive discussion? If you want to fight, take it up somewhere else. If you feel passionately about Fox-Hunting that's fine, I only ask you give your reasoning.

Exactly, TheDoctor has only given oneliners in this thread which basically shows he knows nothing about the subject and should be ignored more than anything as he isn't even respecting anyone else's opinions as you have structured your argument so well mate and have taken a lot of time over it. repped.

[TEMPLE3188]

Originally Posted by mcgrou

Fox repeatedly killed my Grandad's chickens, at least 3/4 times in as many years. It would get into the hut, bite all their throats and skulk away. It never ate any of them, it just killed them.

I can where farmers would be annoyed if this kept happening to their livestock, but surely it's not the foxes fault for trying to survive, surely the farmer is to blame knowing that there are hungry foxes outside his farm and not protecting their livestock well enough?

Originally Posted by bmh16

My point exactly as it has happened with us as said! Sick creatures.



The argument against killing a pet that is ridiculous!! It's not like you keep a fox and get attached to it is it Either way any dog which attacks livestock shouldn't be allowed to live anyway and a fox is so the same thing.

What gives the right for us to choose? Uh, i guess you must be a vegetarian then, as it would be pretty ironic if you ate fish or any animal form now wouldn't it! Ok, i just read that it is ok to kill for food. You are sidetracking mate. What is the difference between shooting foxes to keep their numbers down to protect farming livestock, to just us eating for pleasure especially with the wastage in this society. A lot of people probably leave half of it and if no one wasted then the amount of food we would need would be significantly less and so the slaughter of less animals would be happening. I never waste food, and i hate it whenever i see waste and when i go to restaurants and see people leave half their plates i feel very annoyed as the wastage in today's society is sickening. Getting besides the point there i guess but it still has a certain validity in a thread like this as due to the amount of wastage we wouldn't need to slaughter as much animals as we do for food then would we! Comparing a human's life to a animal's life was also a poor argument as you are basically saying it is ok to kill anything for food. You don't seriously kill people to eat do you!?!?

Sick creatures for trying to eat? Then surely we are sick for trying to eat too? That's ridiculous...

As a matter of fact, in my last job I worked in my bosses home and he had a large garden with trees, bushes etc, where a family of foxes lived, I watched them have young and they were fed regularly, and yes I grew a little attached to them, is that not allowed? Are you honestly suggesting people don't look after foxes as pets?

Your telling me you would kill a dog for killing livestock, for acting natural? People will use the dog to hunt the foxes, but when they hunt their animals they get killed, are you serious?

Since when did wasting food become the topic? For the record I don't waste anything because of how I feel about killing animals for the food in the first place.

Overpopulated? Ben, the world is becoming overpopulated with people, in the last 50 years the world population has almost tripled, soon there will be very little of whats left of nature at the rate humans are growing, so should we kill off some of us to maintain our countrysides being torn down for new homes to accommodate everyone?

Comparing human life to animal life a poor argument? How? You don't think we're animals? Of course we are, we just have the luxury of being able to go to the supermarket and buy our food rather than have to hunt for it. If there was no livestock, no animals, no vegetation left on earth but us, we would kill each other for food, it's natural instinct that we will fight to survive and feed ourselves and our families no matter what the cost, people will think this is insane, but at some point, hunger takes over your mentality and your instincts kick in, survival of the fittest.

I just reread your argument again, killing to keep numbers down, I can't believe someone would actually suggest that when our own race is out of control.

NOTE: If you want your points to be taken seriously, don't end a statement with '!?!?'.

[mcgrou]

Originally Posted by TEMPLE3188

I can where farmers would be annoyed if this kept happening to their livestock, but surely it's not the foxes fault for trying to survive, surely the farmer is to blame knowing that there are hungry foxes outside his farm and not protecting their livestock well enough?

That's the point though; the fox wasn't trying to survive, the fox didn't eat anything. It bit the necks of all the chickens, killing them, then left.

The farmer in question (he's not a farmer, he just keeps some poultry) lost all his chickens about 2/3 times in about 2/3 years. Considering he's an elderly man I think it can be understood that on occasions he forgets to secure the hut well enough.

[TEMPLE3188]

I can understand your sympathy mcgrou, I feel sorry for him that he lost his chickens, but you have to understand that being a fox in the wild, they don't necessarily get their groceries once a week, if they find a source of food and aren't hungry, they will kill it and return to it when they are because times might get difficult in the future, that's his animal instinct, much like when you give your dog a big piece of KFC and he runs out and buries it, only to dig it up weeks later when it's mouldy!

[FurbtasticM]

Originally Posted by Moofassa

To summarise, why should the responsibility of controlling fox numbers and land conservation be placed in the hands of others, when the hunt can fulfill those roles the best?

I take a very balanced view and am always willing to listent to facts and figures.

In the days before hunting was banned, how many hunts were there in the UK each week? How many foxes were "controlled"?

Interestingly, doing a bit of research online, I also read that some local hunts in Essex and Suffolk breed the foxes they hunt by building artificial fox earths.

[TheDoctor]

Originally Posted by bmh16

Exactly, TheDoctor has only given oneliners in this thread which basically shows he knows nothing about the subject and should be ignored more than anything as he isn't even respecting anyone else's opinions as you have structured your argument so well mate and have taken a lot of time over it. repped.

I gave my opinion accross on page one and you called it a
"Dumbass response"
So right back at you about not Respecting peoples opinions...

Oh, and BTW, Fox hunting is people Hunting Foxes, what else is there to know?

[Larkino]

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

I gave my opinion accross on page one and you called it a
"Dumbass response"
So right back at you about not Respecting peoples opinions...

that's cos you're opinion was phrased in such a way that it came off rude, stupid and troll-ish.

make an effort to acknowledge other people's sides of the argument, and post in a mature way, then people will do the same to you.

[TheDoctor]

Originally Posted by Larkino

that's cos you're opinion was phrased in such a way that it came off rude, stupid and troll-ish.

make an effort to acknowledge other people's sides of the argument, and post in a mature way, then people will do the same to you.

But it was an opinion...
Never been told by someone that Opinions are not right or wrong?

[Larkino]

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

But it was an opinion...
Never been told by someone that Opinions are not right or wrong?

I didn't say your opinion was wrong. I just said if you take some time in making a mature and sensible post people will respond in a mature and sensible way.

[mcgrou]

Originally Posted by TEMPLE3188

I can understand your sympathy mcgrou, I feel sorry for him that he lost his chickens, but you have to understand that being a fox in the wild, they don't necessarily get their groceries once a week, if they find a source of food and aren't hungry, they will kill it and return to it when they are because times might get difficult in the future, that's his animal instinct, much like when you give your dog a big piece of KFC and he runs out and buries it, only to dig it up weeks later when it's mouldy!

Oh no definitely, I agree with the argument against the hunt as a form of culling the fox population, as it seems inefficient, cruel and inhumane. I was just pointing out a situation I had come across where it seemed the fox had not killed simply to eat, although the reasoning you explained in your last post was sound.

I'm not against lowering the fox population, if it is deemed that they have a negative impact on the environment/ecosystem/farmer's welfare, but I doubt that with today's technology there isn't a more efficient method than "Let's chase 'em and blast 'em"

[TheDoctor]

This basically reflects what my opinion is on the subject....



I disagree with fox hunting. I cannot see a reason for the big social occasion that is involved in chasing down a defenceless (and beautiful) animal, terrifying it and killing it.

On a personal level, I could not and would not want to kill anything. I cannot understand what drives people to WANT to kill animals in the name of sport. It is totally abhorant to me.

I understand the plight of people being put out of work but that has happened to many factions of our society (rightly or wrongly) and I don't see it as a valid argument to keep a cruel sport going.

[bmh16]

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

I gave my opinion accross on page one and you called it a
"Dumbass response"
So right back at you about not Respecting peoples opinions...

Oh, and BTW, Fox hunting is people Hunting Foxes, what else is there to know?

Yeah, because you just said a one line response and didn't explain your reasons when everyone else is. Grow up...

And btw, for your above response haven't you read what Moofassa has said. Clearly not by that.