Should We Continue To Offer Welfare

[keitaro258]

I don't know it they do this in the uk or anywere else for that matter but if they dont in your country should they start or not?(If anyone is getting anoyed with my threads i'll end my days in the debating forum).

[joewarne]

I knew this would be a question from someone from the USA.

There are very different view on welfare in both the UK and USA.

Here in the UK, it is much accepted that the welfare state is a good thing as it can offer health and education to anyone in the country basically instantly. Doctors shouldnt be worrying about whether you have enough money to pay for an operation before they operate on you. Same with schools, everyone should be able to go to school without paying (directly) for it.

This does not make us Socialists, like Americans seem to think Barack Obama is for trying to get a little bit of universal healthcare in to help people who cannot afford it.

It should be the state's role to supply healthcare, it has to be a nationalised industry. If a major health firm went bankrupt everyone would be screwed and there would be no healthcare.

People on welfare need this money, especially with the lack of jobs and the current economic position of the country at the moment. I agree there are some people incorrectly claiming for incapacity benifit but that is a small percentage and its not right to punish the genuine people who are on it and need it.

People are not born into advantageous situations. Its a proven fact that if you are born into poverty you will stay in poverty. But here in Britain where we have a larger welfare system, there are more people going to universities than ever, exams grades get better every year.

Welfare is vital and necesary. The rich have a responsability to pay back to the country that they are making their money in. And it doesnt make us Socialists if we have a welfare system!

[TheDoctor]

I think they should keep offering welfare for the people who cant get jobs.
Especially with the worlds economy as it is.

And a word to the wise, dont talk about your favourite TV shows then you should be ok.

[joewarne]

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

I think they should keep offering welfare for the people who cant get jobs.
Especially with the worlds economy as it is.

And a word to the wise, dont talk about your favourite TV shows then you should be ok.

also helps if your username isnt it aswell

[oXoDCoXo]

Originally Posted by joewarne

The rich have a responsability to pay back to the country that they are making their money in.

agree with everything you have said there, apart from that bit.

Why should rich people (that have worked hard) have to pay large chunks of their cash to people that (ok not the majority) but to people that stay on the doll and cant be bothered to get a job?

rich people like footballers however i have no problem with them paying so much of their money as they get ridiculous salaries as it is.

[joewarne]

Originally Posted by oXoDCoXo

agree with everything you have said there, apart from that bit.

Why should rich people (that have worked hard) have to pay large chunks of their cash to people that (ok not the majority) but to people that stay on the doll and cant be bothered to get a job?

rich people like footballers however i have no problem with them paying so much of their money as they get ridiculous salaries as it is.

they are exploiting that population for their wealth

e.g businesses using cheap labour or using the market to sell to that country

they wouldnt be there if they werent happy with the large amount of cash they are making

we have favourable (sp) taxation laws for big business anyway so their income tax should be payed

can u give me an example of a rich person who doesnt deserve to pay tax

[Maxx]

In terms of benefits, I understand giving the unemployed money to live on, if they're actively looking for a job. There are many people who have a mental or physical disability which makes it unable for them to get a job - it shouldn't be their friends/family who have to pay for them all through their life, so I understand them receiving benefits.

What I have a problem with is 17 year old school drop-outs who just sit at home all day and still receive benefits.

[oXoDCoXo]

Originally Posted by joewarne

they are exploiting that population for their wealth

e.g businesses using cheap labour or using the market to sell to that country

they wouldnt be there if they werent happy with the large amount of cash they are making

we have favourable (sp) taxation laws for big business anyway so their income tax should be payed

can u give me an example of a rich person who doesnt deserve to pay tax

i didnt say that they dont deserve to pay tax, i think they should pay tax... but its when people say rich people have a responsibility to pay more tax that i disagree with... just because a person is rich it doesnt mean that they own a company and its not them "exploiting" cheap labour (if the COMPANY does it anyway)

im not saying millionaires that own their own business... but just people that are e.g. high up in a company and have spent their lives at the company working their way up.... they arent exploiting people and i dont think they have a RESPONSIBILITY to

[Larkino]

Originally Posted by oXoDCoXo

i didnt say that they dont deserve to pay tax, i think they should pay tax... but its when people say rich people have a responsibility to pay more tax that i disagree with... just because a person is rich it doesnt mean that they own a company and its not them "exploiting" cheap labour (if the COMPANY does it anyway)

im not saying millionaires that own their own business... but just people that are e.g. high up in a company and have spent their lives at the company working their way up.... they arent exploiting people and i dont think they have a RESPONSIBILITY to

But then in that respect, do poor people deserve to pay the same amount of tax than everyone else?

[FurbtasticM]

Originally Posted by joewarne

they are exploiting that population for their wealth

e.g businesses using cheap labour or using the market to sell to that country

they wouldnt be there if they werent happy with the large amount of cash they are making

we have favourable (sp) taxation laws for big business anyway so their income tax should be payed

can u give me an example of a rich person who doesnt deserve to pay tax

With such a moral stance Joe, I can only assume you are paying tax on the £15k in your spoiler?

[FurbtasticM]

Originally Posted by Larkino

But then in that respect, do poor people deserve to pay the same amount of tax than everyone else?

What is your definition of "rich"?

The level that 40% tax cuts in isn't huge. Does someone earning £45k a year use more facilities and amenities to justify that?

As for the debate in general, we should continue to offer welfare to everyone who genuinely needs it.

[the_saint]

Originally Posted by joewarne

I agree there are some people incorrectly claiming for incapacity benifit but that is a small percentage and its not right to punish the genuine people who are on it and need it.

I don't have a problem with people who genuinely need to claim getting money, I don't think that it is true to same that those incorrectly claiming are a small percentage. I only have anecdotal evidence, but I have lots of outrageous claims and refuse to believe that it is only a small percentage.

Its a proven fact that if you are born into poverty you will stay in poverty.

Quite a bold statement which I can disprove with one example!! We have a client who was born in to poverty, left school at 14, and through hard work and good business acumen he is now worth £700m (well, prior to the recession, probably a bit less now - but you see what I'm saying).

I agree that that is a rare example and if you are born in to poverty you certainly have huge disadvantages, but getting out of it can be done.

Originally Posted by oXoDCoXo

rich people like footballers however i have no problem with them paying so much of their money as they get ridiculous salaries as it is.

Why are their salaries ridiculous? They are paid high salaries by their employers because they facilitate their employers making profit. It's like any key employee - if they can provide a service that no one else, or only a few other people can provide (or can do it exceptionally well) and it allows someone to make a lot of money then why not reward them well?

Why do you have a problem with footballers and not film stars, or models, or excutives of multinational companies - each of whom earn as much, if not more than footballers? What about Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, basket palyers, the list goes on but no one ever moans about their salaries.

It's just because people are jealous - they enjoy playing football and wish they could be paid lots to do it.

Originally Posted by Maxx

In terms of benefits, I understand giving the unemployed money to live on, if they're actively looking for a job. There are many people who have a mental or physical disability which makes it unable for them to get a job - it shouldn't be their friends/family who have to pay for them all through their life, so I understand them receiving benefits.

What I have a problem with is 17 year old school drop-outs who just sit at home all day and still receive benefits.

I agree. As someone with a brother who has cerebral palsy and who would give anything to be physically capable of working, even a low paid menial job, it pisses me off no end when I meet people who just sit back and claim benefits and smoke weed all day because (1) they are too lazy to get a job, and (2) the benefits they get are so good that there is no incentive to get a job as they would actually earn less than they get on benefits.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's important that any society looks after those with difficulties that prevent them working, whether it be health difficulties or someone who has just been made redundant and needs to go on the dole for a while to support themselves while they try and find something (that is after all one of the reasons why we pay tax, so that we can have that insurance if we fall on bad times), but I don't think society and those of us who work hard and pay tax have any duty to support that are too lazy to work.

[tronsmith]

We should offer benefits to people who are llooking for work and to people who genuinely are unable to. As 'Saint said, I am dead against giving welfare to people who just don't want bto work, it pi***s me off a treat!

[Monkeyegg]

Saint made a good point about the rate of payouts. I know of 2 people who have become single mothers. They both needed financial support and I think it is good that we live in a society where that help is available.

In both of these situations though, the mother has then wanted to get a job, but hasn't been able to find one that pays as much as the benefits they receive (let alone pay for any additional childcare costs they might incur).

Surely there is something wrong there? I don't know what the solution is, but I can understand why someone would decide not to return to work if doing so would make them worse off. One of them did exactly that - which shows that we can't really label anyone.

Maybe there should be some short-term incentives available in such situations.

[Kash]

If you earn more why shouldn't you pay more tax? The human species can be so greedy it makes me ashamed !!!

Like these people who get millions and manage to actually spend it all on crap and end up broke within a few years.

And just because someone has a job, it does not mean they are worthy of keeping it all. People in the NHS, the police and social services for example are all getting paid by our tax money and they don't necessarily do what they are paid to do (from a life time of experience dealing with these people). Therefore they are wasting our money just as much if not more than lazy people on the dole!. As far as im concerned I would rather my tax went on a lazy layabout, than government employed person who with there 'powers' has made my life a misery on many occasion.

With that said i do think benefits should add up to less than minimum wage otherwise do you really blame people for not wanting to work when they are going to be earning even less

[the_saint]

Originally Posted by Kash

If you earn more why shouldn't you pay more tax? The human species can be so greedy it makes me ashamed !!!

Why should you? You kind of say that if it is so obvious you don't even have to explain it.

If everyone paid the same rate of tax then that would surely be fairer? The amount of tax you paid would be determined by how much you earn, but everyone would pay it at the same rate.

Ever heard of the brain drain? If you are so good at your job that you get paid a lot to do it then why put up with a 50% tax rate when you could go somewhere with lower taxes. That denies the UK the benefit of what you can offer society, plus the tax you would pay (even if it was at the lowest rate) if you stayed.

Like these people who get millions and manage to actually spend it all on crap and end up broke within a few years.

(1) Most people who earn millions a year work hard for it and have built up to that level over time. They don't usually waste it all away as they have had time to get used to that wage, it's people like a few lottery winners you are thinking of.

(2) What do you mean by crap? Surely one man's crap is another man's treasure?

(3) Even if it is crap who are you to tell someone what they can or can't spend their hard earned money on? I doubt you would like it if someone you never met started telling you how to spend your own money.

And just because someone has a job, it does not mean they are worthy of keeping it all. People in the NHS, the police and social services for example are all getting paid by our tax money and they don't necessarily do what they are paid to do (from a life time of experience dealing with these people). Therefore they are wasting our money just as much if not more than lazy people on the dole!.

Really?! If they are working in say the NHS for example, even if they are doing their job badly they are still doing a job and probably giving at least something productive to their employer. Whereas the long term dole claimers don't do that. It's hard to imagine someone there job so badly that they would be wasting taxpayers money more that someone on the dole - you would imagine that if they were that awful at it they would be fired.

As far as im concerned I would rather my tax went on a lazy layabout, than government employed person who with there 'powers' has made my life a misery on many occasion.

I'm sure you would! I would rather not have my tax go on someone who had made my life a misery, but then if everyone could dictate that there tax was spent like that then I reckon our taxes would never get spent would they?

With that said i do think benefits should add up to less than minimum wage otherwise do you really blame people for not wanting to work when they are going to be earning even less

In principle that's the first thing you've said that I agree with, but the practical problem with it what is the minimum wage though? It's an hourly rate of pay but some people will only work 10 hours a week, others maybe up to 80. So how do you translate that into benefits?

[Gregm]

the UK NHS is the best in the world and is often taken for granted.
I live in New Zealand, and every time I go to the Doctor I pay $40 for a 10 minute consultation. I was so used to not paying in the UK that when I go to the Doctor here, I have almost walked out without paying several times, but the receptionist shouts me back.

Should people earning more money pay a higher tax rate?
if everyone paid , say, 25% then those earning £50K would pay more in £ terms than someone earing £20K, why make them pay a higher % ?

[Simmo]

People who don't actively look for a job don't recieve as much as people who do. I think the rich should pay more tax than the poor, but its all about proportions. I don't believe the rich should pay a much higher percentage more than those with less income, but they should still be taxed a higher percentage, the economy wouldnt survive if it wasnt this way.

NHS wise, the government should provide a free health service as I think its the governments duty to look after their people. I used to not believe in an NHS but it would just lead to a weaker work force which would just have a knock-on effect on the economy. Then again, I think why should people receive health care that they don't contribute towards tax wise.

I also think people really don't understand about benefits and how it works before they pass opinion on it.