Illegal Downloading of Software - Justified?

[chigley]

Nothing annoys me more than people who have expensive software such as Adobe Photoshop CS4, but have illegally downloaded it as opposed to paying for it.

Whether Adobe is a massive company or not, I still don't think that's any excuse.

[the_icks]

hmmmm, not sure which side of the fence I fall on this............I disagree with the use of pirated softwar for personal gain, but also disagree with commercial grade software being priced out of the pockets of people who would very much like to use it but may not have the benefit of a student license or a big wallet!!

[-null-]

No, it is essentially theft plain and simple. It doesn't matter whether the companies producing the software price it out of reach of many people or are "thieves" themselves, it is still theft.

[Harvez]

pointless this really, everyone knows it's theft and you cant justify it no matter what angle you come from.
/me goes check for the latest R5 releases.

[Jon]

These companies will spend millions on staff to develop these products, the high price is justified.

In recent years the open source comunity has been trying to offer similar software for free while they won't have the same bleeding edge features they will do enough for the average user.

[the_icks]

oh well, might as well close this thread too if theres only one possible side!!

Pirated software is like drugs, supply and demand.

While the prices are high there will always be people who will crack the latest versions.

Pirate Bay has just been sold for 4million quid so there must be money to be made by the hosts too.

Lets not forget that Exceem was created to take advantage of this demand.

[ElectroGirl]

I think it doesn't really matter if the software is expensive. The people (Adobe) have developed and created it.

There must be plenty of alternatives that are free or less costly.

[the_icks]

I also disagree with student licensing schemes, why should students be able to buy commercial software at a fraction of the price, surely that must mean that the software can be sold at that price, or are we subsidising students??

Before all the students attack me I know that life is hard etc etc but it aint a bed of roses for most of the rest of us!!

[Ilikefree]

Originally Posted by the_icks

I also disagree with student licensing schemes, why should students be able to buy commercial software at a fraction of the price, surely that must mean that the software can be sold at that price, or are we subsidising students??

Before all the students attack me I know that life is hard etc etc but it aint a bed of roses for most of the rest of us!!

life is hard man!

[-null-]

Originally Posted by the_icks

I also disagree with student licensing schemes, why should students be able to buy commercial software at a fraction of the price, surely that must mean that the software can be sold at that price, or are we subsidising students??

Before all the students attack me I know that life is hard etc etc but it aint a bed of roses for most of the rest of us!!

Because the software companies know if they get people using their software when they are starting out the companies they end up working for will have to buy it as it will be the only thing the people they hire will know.

tbh it's not just high cost software that is pirated. Any popular application will be pirated no matter how much it costs. Like you say, it's all about supply and demand. As long as there are people not willing to pay for software, even software that costs as low as $20 there will be people pirate it.

[delude]

I have read some very interesting articles online and in magazines on this, so will try to explain what I kind of agree with.

There seem to be three types of software pirates.

A - Person that downloads software illegaly, becomes interested in it and so starts using it more and more, learning and educating themselves with it.

B - Person that downloads software illegaly, doesn't like it or know what to do with it and so deletes it.

C - Person that downloads software illegaly, uses it occasionally (most likely just for personal use), not bothered about it too much and does not want to learn or advance.

The fact is, software piracy sells the companies products. This is not short term, but thinking about it they most likely gain more than they lose.

Looking at the three types of people I mentioned above, I believe that a fair few of downloaders will fall into the B and C category (which should be pretty obvious as otherwise there wouldn't be such a deserved negative view on the piracy).

Person A however would take an interest in what they downloaded, more than they would a trial as they know they have the full software and have all the time they want to experiment and grow with it. I have no facts but from what I have personally seen, the majority of internet pirates seem to be younger, meaning that if they are Person A when they advance in school and have the opportunity to put what they to know to use they will do. The school would have bought the software that they have been familiar with, Photoshop as an example, and so they would most likely thrive in the work and enjoy more what they have got out of the software they once pirated. At this stage they would most likely have the knowledge and sense to look further at how they could use what they know, and either the school would buy them a copy, or they would get a student licence. After really starting use the program, and mastering it, when it comes to updates the person would buy them, and as they age going through better jobs would carry on to do so (which may lead them on to more payments through other software interests from the same company).

There seems to be several stages of sales that a person truly interested in the software would run through, if they do not fall into this category then I believe the percentage of people actually solidly using the programs commericaly, making money, and truly exploiting it is a lot less. The others, messing around for personal use or just having it for the sake will not damage the company in the way you would think, as they are not making anything from it, or learning about it. It is just there, and not used for the true purpose.

Sorry I don't have any links, it was a few months ago when I read about this but it has been touched upon quite a lot, and I have to say that it seems logical. With some people they may never have even thought or dreamed about where they could be, without originally downloading that piece of software. Who knows, they may go into the specific field the software targets, such as design, or even working for the company itself! (it seems like quite an extreme example, and thought, but it is very realistic and possible.)

To conclude, the people that get somewhere are the people that care, if someone takes a genuine interest in software that they pirate (which they do because they would otherwise not be able to afford it) then as they develop I am sure that there will be the many opportunities mentioned for the company to benefit financially, which would not happen if the person did not pirate the software in the first place (because they could and would not have got it any other way).

(Don't bite me, I must say I kind of agree!)

[the_icks]

will have to wait before I give rep, but I couldnt have put it better myself.

(I am also suprised that nobody has picked me up on the origins of exceem point I raised)

[delude]

Originally Posted by the_icks

will have to wait before I give rep, but I couldnt have put it better myself.

(I am also suprised that nobody has picked me up on the origins of exceem point I raised)

I did
Just didn't want to put it in the same huge post.

Then the problem comes between people who think music piracy is okay, and software isn't. I'll leave my opinions for that in the appropriate thread.

[barcelonic]

Originally Posted by harvez

pointless this really, everyone knows it's theft and you cant justify it no matter what angle you come from.
/me goes check for the latest R5 releases.

Once again speaking for others, lol

Am I the only one who doesn't think this issue is as straight-forward as theivery. We don't live in a black and white world, Im afraid to say.

When the internet began shops began going out of business if they didn't go online. In fact if you are a retailer thinking of opening a new business, you can pretty much forget about it unless you sell via a website as well as your store. Most retailers don't even bother with stores anymore.
The same thing has happened with libraries, and there is very little need for the services of a cartographer any more unless he works for Google.

These are just a few examples of where the onus has been on industry to adapt to the changing times. I see no difference between that and this. Why should the music industry be exempt (i say music because we are talking about piracy, which has affected the music industry significantly more than the movie and software industries)?

It is my firm belief that when something becomes easier for the consumer to do than not to do, the majority will do it. I appreciate that many of you on eXceem have strong opinions on the morality of this issue, which are preventing you from joining the masses who download in violation of copyright. But it has become far, far easier for you or I to log on, search for and download a song, movie or piece of software and "steal" it. Therefore the lines of distribution have failed. Just as the retailers failed, the libraries failed and the mapmakers failed.

The onus is now on the respective industries of music, movies and software, to reinvent the way in which they distribute such material. I do not suggest this task is going to be easy, but I strongly disagree with the implication that as the task is so difficult the onus should be retured to the consumer.

I do not profess to know all of the answers to this situation, but you've been looking for an opposing point of view and I felt I had to jump in when people started suggesting that nobody in their right mind could justifiably represent an opposing view in a section such as this.

If ANY of what I have said makes EVEN A LITTLE sense to you, regardless of whether your opinions remain as strong as ever in favour of anti-piracy views, please DO watch the movies at Steal This Film II for far more articulated discussion from those involved in the ongoing battle.

[Jon]

To add something, Microsoft have essentially given away Windows 7 for free untill March 2010 (thats when it goes into turn off every 2 hours mode), im going to download the RC and give it a go, obviously I can revert back to good old XP when the RC period finishes, but I think this is MS combating software piracy head on by giving people the full product, with no nasty trogens programmed in (does this ever happen?), letting them get used to it, then letting them pay to keep it running after. They do with is MS office to I think a 60 day free trial.

[Bobman13579]

Originally Posted by delude

A - Person that downloads software illegaly, becomes interested in it and so starts using it more and more, learning and educating themselves with it.

Thats me right there, but if i like the software and get good, I buy the full product so I dont feel bad!

[kevan321]

I'm not against it. Although I don't have it, I'd like a copy of photoshop to play about with and learn how to use it, but there's no way I'd pay that much for something that might be a bit of fun, kind of handy to know but that I'll never really use for much.

It's more than likely I'd use it about 3 times go 'oh that's quite cool'' then never look at it again.

Adobe would certainly not be losing a customer by me downloading a copy, but there is always a chance I could get really into it and would probs buy the next version when released.

[delude]

Originally Posted by Jon

To add something, Microsoft have essentially given away Windows 7 for free untill March 2010 (thats when it goes into turn off every 2 hours mode), im going to download the RC and give it a go, obviously I can revert back to good old XP when the RC period finishes, but I think this is MS combating software piracy head on by giving people the full product, with no nasty trogens programmed in (does this ever happen?), letting them get used to it, then letting them pay to keep it running after. They do with is MS office to I think a 60 day free trial.

Apple have made the update to Snow Leopard a lot less than it is probably worth, again making sure everything gets the real thing whilst actually pleasing the majority of customers.

Edit:

Originally Posted by barcelonic

Once again speaking for others, lol

Am I the only one who doesn't think this issue is as straight-forward as theivery. We don't live in a black and white world, Im afraid to say.
There is nothing that can be done about this unfortuately, it is the way things are and there are plenty of people who wont change (if people changed like that, what would be the need for prisons, police, government? Piracy is not the only bad factor of the world).

People have to learn to adapt and live, which is what Microsoft and Apple are doing.

Read my post and see if it makes sense, the companies will still make money from their target audience, and for the others who do not care there will really not be much of an impact in the wider view.

[barcelonic]

There have been a few PC games which I have downloaded and discarded. I only downloaded them because I thought they sounded interesting but had NO intention of buying the game. Eg.. Spore, The Sims 3
I NEVER would have bought these games so I downloaded them instead.

Some companies are very creative at finding ways of adapting, such as Microsoft (as Jon mentioned). But the vast majority are not trying hard enough.

The MPAA seem completely unwilling to attempt such a change, and instead are taking individuals to court for the sole purpose of setting an example. It is like cutting the heads off a few villagers and mounting their heads on pikes to intimidate the village. Unfortunately this isn't working. Piracy will NEVER end so there is simply no point in doing this.

The music industry has been affected significantly by piracy, but the movie and software industries have barely been touched at all. Of course they will have you believe otherwise, but indpendent studies have shown that the vast majority of movies/games downloaded are done so by people who would NOT have purchased the product.

I very, very rarely used to buy movies before online piracy became so easy. Now I download at least 5 movies a week, sometimes more! What does that tell you? Those studios have not lost out on ANY money from me downloading those films!

[delude]

Originally Posted by barcelonic

There have been a few PC games which I have downloaded and discarded. I only downloaded them because I thought they sounded interesting but had NO intention of buying the game. Eg.. Spore, The Sims 3
I NEVER would have bought these games so I downloaded them instead.

Some companies are very creative at finding ways of adapting, such as Microsoft (as Jon mentioned). But the vast majority are not trying hard enough.

The MPAA seem completely unwilling to attempt such a change, and instead are taking individuals to court for the sole purpose of setting an example. It is like cutting the heads off a few villagers and mounting their heads on pikes to intimidate the village. Unfortunately this isn't working. Piracy will NEVER end so there is simply no point in doing this.

The music industry has been affected significantly by piracy, but the movie and software industries have barely been touched at all. Of course they will have you believe otherwise, but indpendent studies have shown that the vast majority of movies/games downloaded are done so by people who would NOT have purchased the product.

I very, very rarely used to buy movies before online piracy became so easy. Now I download at least 5 movies a week, sometimes more! What does that tell you? Those studios have not lost out on ANY money from me downloading those films!

People will always see films in Cinemas for the experience, and if they have a social life. DVDs don't seem to play such a big part, but things are getting easier what with iTunes and fairer prices etc.

If you really love a band, then you will go and see them, buy merch, BUY their newest songs and support them through other means.

the guys from Pendulum were interviewed at Download and talked about their new live DVD. They all agreed that they didn't care how people got it, if it was bought, shared or downloaded but as long as they received the Pendulum Experience and enjoyed it. This seems to be the way music is going, if you care then you will support them and spend money seeing them live.