Capital Punishment

[mcgrou]

For or against?

Why?

gogogo

[joewarne]

Against

Everyone is able to reform themselves, if mentally ill they go into a mental hospital

Everyone deserves a second chance in life - 2 wrongs dont make a right and 2 deaths are worse that 1

[kevan321]

Undecided, I think our prison system has gone too soft, but some places are too harsh.

The thing I don't get is the lethal injection, I would much rather that than spend my life behind bars, whereas the electric chair would be worse, and a horrible punishment (which it's supposed to be).

Really couldn't decide either way. If someone killed a family member, would you be satisfied with him just in our jails?

[robertjb]

I believe that giving prisoners the death sentence is an easy way out. Why do they get off without having to suffer whenever the families of those loved ones they've hurt have to suffer for the rest of their lives. Start work camps or make them live in tiny cages (stuff human rights - if people kill they don't deserve any rights) and show them the true meaning of suffering. Also Life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment not 9 years then you get released for good behaviour. Lock them up and throw away the key!

[eonbar]

definatly against capitol punishment. too many times have people been wrongly convicted. death can also be seen as an easy way out, and much more satisfactory then spending years in prison. it should be up to noone apart from nature or god to chose who lives and who dies. even when america gave saddam up to be hung i felt disgusted in humanity, dispite the thousands of people hes tortured, murder and persicuted. capitol punishment doesn't really seem much of a deterant. anyone who is sane enough to know what they are doing, yet still do it, most definatly wouldn't mind death. everyone else (i.e. the insane) are to crazy, sick and twisted for it to be their 'fault' and its rather due to a huge number of pre-dating state of affairs, determinism, chemicals in the brain, pychological disturbances etc ...

therefore ... no

[kevan321]

Originally Posted by robertjb

I believe that giving prisoners the death sentence is an easy way out. Why do they get off without having to suffer whenever the families of those loved ones they've hurt have to suffer for the rest of their lives. Start work camps or make them live in tiny cages (stuff human rights - if people kill they don't deserve any rights) and show them the true meaning of suffering. Also Life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment not 9 years then you get released for good behaviour. Lock them up and throw away the key!

That's what I mean about the injection, they don't feel a thing.

But you've got to worry about the people who have to do the killing, can't be easy

[barcelonic]

People tend to focus far too much on morality with this argument. Unfortunately its not that simple.

The primary focus of anti-deathpenalty groups in America is on practical application. I agree this is where this debate should lie.

In America, when someone is sentenced to death, they are sent to death row where they remain for years and often DECADES. This is because in order to legally do such a thing there must be plenty of time for appeals. These appeals take years to process and every aspect of the case must be looked at again and again with each appeal.

Death row is COMPLETELY different from prison, because knowing you are going to die and having that hanging over you for so long is a prison of its own.

And so by the time the person is actually executed, the person you are killing is NOT the same person who was convicted. There may be the odd occasion where this doesnt apply but it is extremely rare. The people campaigning to abolish this law in the US have studied such cases and interviewed such prisoners over many, many years and it is clear that when the execution date comes the convict is so resentful and has changed so much during that time that he is no longer a threat to anyone.

Of course the appeals process is completely necessary and so the only fair way to avoid this situation is dropping the death penalty. Personally, I believe in rehabilitation, not punishment. And I don't believe that we should punish because we are not efficient enough at rehabilitation.

I am against the death penalty for many reasons, but the main issue is that it cannot be practically applied. I also think it is very primitive, and believe sentencing should always be about rehabilitation and not punishment (partially because studies have ALWAYS shown that punishment does not deter).

[oXoDCoXo]

Originally Posted by barcelonic

People tend to focus far too much on morality with this argument. Unfortunately its not that simple.

The primary focus of anti-deathpenalty groups in America is on practical application. I agree this is where this debate should lie.

In America, when someone is sentenced to death, they are sent to death row where they remain for years and often DECADES. This is because in order to legally do such a thing there must be plenty of time for appeals. These appeals take years to process and every aspect of the case must be looked at again and again with each appeal.

Death row is COMPLETELY different from prison, because knowing you are going to die and having that hanging over you for so long is a prison of its own.

And so by the time the person is actually executed, the person you are killing is NOT the same person who was convicted. There may be the odd occasion where this doesnt apply but it is extremely rare. The people campaigning to abolish this law in the US have studied such cases and interviewed such prisoners over many, many years and it is clear that when the execution date comes the convict is so resentful and has changed so much during that time that he is no longer a threat to anyone.

Of course the appeals process is completely necessary and so the only fair way to avoid this situation is dropping the death penalty. Personally, I believe in rehabilitation, not punishment. And I don't believe that we should punish because we are not efficient enough at rehabilitation.

I am against the death penalty for many reasons, but the main issue is that it cannot be practically applied. I also think it is very primitive, and believe sentencing should always be about rehabilitation and not punishment (partially because studies have ALWAYS shown that punishment does not deter).

im agreeing with you too much today

(dont take this like im trying to be all badaman /something im not)

but basicaly, i think out prison system is s**t. 7 of the biggest dealers in my area have just been sentenced after raids a few months back and got 42 years between them. But they arent bothered by this, for example one of them has got 7years. He said to me before all this happened that he doesnt mind going to prison as the money he makes doing it is worth it then if he gets sentenced to 8 years, he will be out in 4 and tagged for about 6 months, and he will basicaly only serve about 3/4 years of his time in prison.

All of them are going to be out in 10 years time (total max) and im atleast 4 of them will go back to dealing... or worse due to what they have learnt in their time inside. As soon as they were all arrested, there were dealers ready and waiting to take their places and the cycle will just continue.

If more emphasis was placed on the rehabilitation side like barcelonic said i believe that alot of them would not go back to dealing and would actualy try to get proper jobs. They are actualy nice people and I dont think they need to be doing what they have done to make money as they are capable of much more.. they have just been led a-stray when younger.

I may have rambled on abit there but hopefully you get my point that rehabilitation is better than punishment as it may stop people re-offending.

[barcelonic]

Originally Posted by oXoDCoXo

im agreeing with you too much today

(dont take this like im trying to be all badaman /something im not)

but basicaly, i think out prison system is s**t. 7 of the biggest dealers in my area have just been sentenced after raids a few months back and got 42 years between them. But they arent bothered by this, for example one of them has got 7years. He said to me before all this happened that he doesnt mind going to prison as the money he makes doing it is worth it then if he gets sentenced to 8 years, he will be out in 4 and tagged for about 6 months, and he will basicaly only serve about 3/4 years of his time in prison.

All of them are going to be out in 10 years time (total max) and im atleast 4 of them will go back to dealing... or worse due to what they have learnt in their time inside. As soon as they were all arrested, there were dealers ready and waiting to take their places and the cycle will just continue.

If more emphasis was placed on the rehabilitation side like barcelonic said i believe that alot of them would not go back to dealing and would actualy try to get proper jobs. They are actualy nice people and I dont think they need to be doing what they have done to make money as they are capable of much more.. they have just been led a-stray when younger.

I may have rambled on abit there but hopefully you get my point that rehabilitation is better than punishment as it may stop people re-offending.

exactly, but i think a lot of people think it can't be done. thats so wrong tho, its just that our government only has one solution for every problem - throw money at it! build more jails, get more police on the beat, install CCTV everywhere!! sorry but thats ridiculous, you need to be tough on the causes of crime, and that includes ppl who may reoffend. Stop crime BEFORE it happens, not punishment after its too late. If we threw half the money they spend, on preventative crime-fighting this country would be a far safer place.

and Dan you made a good point there about learning worse things is prison. it is true! i've never been to prison thank god but i know ppl who have and if you ask anyone who's been inside they'll tell you its like crime school.

you could easily go in with a GCSE in selling pills, and come out with a Masters in smuggling. You go in with a BTEC in stealing cars, you come out with an A-level in armed robbery.

[oXoDCoXo]

to elaborate on that, the phrase "its not only what you know, its who you know" is perfect for this as its probably one of the biggest things when it comes down to crime... and once you go into prison, the amount of "who you know" increases immensely.

[the_icks]

Originally Posted by kevan321

That's what I mean about the injection, they don't feel a thing.

at least they sterilize the needle first!!

In America where they have the death penalty it still isnt a deterrent!! Even in countries where there are public executions including beheadings there is not a noticible decrease in crime, societyy adapts.

Look at the media uproar about that girl due to be killed for drugs smuggling and all the bleeding heart liberals who felt sorry for her because she got herself pregnant in an all women prison!! Just that case alone should be included in the 'abortion' and 'does god exist' threads!!

Its a real pity that wasnt discovered this week as with all the Michael Jackson coverage they could have killed her with a red hot pineapple up the bum and nobody would have cared!!

[Harvez]

I wouldnt say its a deterrent, but it would save countries thousands of pounds rather than keeping them locked up if they just killed the serial killers etc.
look at the yorkshire ripper he should have been hung once found guilty, £30,000+ a year to keep 1 prisoner in jail thats bolloks.

you can go ahead and say but what if they are mistakenly put in prison? well the amount of dna evidence etc that the police can now use is alot more convincing thasn yesteryear.

oh and Mcgrou if your going to start a debate at least voice your own opinion in the opening post instead of just thinking of a topic which will get a response i could open dozens a day like that but what would be the point.

[barcelonic]

Originally Posted by harvez

A I wouldnt say its a deterrent, but it would save countries thousands of pounds rather than keeping them locked up if they just killed the serial killers etc.
look at the yorkshire ripper he should have been hung once found guilty, £30,000+ a year to keep 1 prisoner in jail thats bolloks.

B you can go ahead and say but what if they are mistakenly put in prison? well the amount of dna evidence etc that the police can now use is alot more convincing thasn yesteryear.

C oh and Mcgrou if your going to start a debate at least voice your own opinion in the opening post instead of just thinking of a topic which will get a response i could open dozens a day like that but what would be the point.

A So we should kill people for money now? Hmmm...

B People need to realise that DNA evidence isn't concrete. It can be wrong and has been wrong in the past, and so we should never be using DNA evidence alone.

C I agree, that seemed a little odd

[Jono310]

I think its very easy to have opinions on things when you're not directly effected by them.

I'd love to say that i am 100% against the death penalty, but if i had a daughter who was raped and murdered and they caught the b*****d who did it and he had no remorse and said he'd do it again....well, i don't think i'd be quite so morally astute.

[barcelonic]

Originally Posted by Jono310

I think its very easy to have opinions on things when you're not directly effected by them.

I'd love to say that i am 100% against the death penalty, but if i had a daughter who was raped and murdered and they caught the b*****d who did it and he had no remorse and said he'd do it again....well, i don't think i'd be quite so morally astute.

ye but that wouldnt be our opinion changing, it would just be emotion getting the better of reason. thats why if a tribunal were to decide on a law like this they wouldnt allow anyone on it who has suffered through what you've described.

if that happened to me I'd hunt them down and kill them myself, but that doesnt make it right. (edit: you should watch The Last House On The Left its along those lines and really good)

i mentioned in a prevous post i thought the death penalty was primitive, and this is what i mean. it is primitive when we allow our hearts to rule out head. we must instead use logic and reason to decide not just this issue, but all issues affecting us in the world to day. acting out through emotion may feel good at the time but it is unbiased logical thinking that should set laws and enforce them.

[Harvez]

people live on emotions that lifes, another idea would be to slap them on an island with no way off but death give them basics to shelter means of food animals etc and leave them to it.
if they want to live like animals in society let them live like that away from society.

but I still stand that the death penalty should be allowed even if not this country as I doubt in my life time it would ever happen.

[Simon]

Did innitially have mixed feelings about this, but having read some of your opinions i tend to agree. Yes it would act as a detterent but it is like a easy way out for the criminal who can escape from all the thoughts and regrets which can act as a form of mental punishment i can imagine and may be the start of them transforming themselves into a better person.

On a side note the prison punishment system is far to weak in my opinion (obviously we can only observe and make judgements) and doesnt seem to act as a punishment or a transformation system at all when you look at the number of ex criminals going on to commit further crimes when released. Also when looking at more serious crimes with longer/"life" (although the common 25 years is half a life imo) the prison punishment seems like a easy life - 3 meals a day, a bed to sleep in at night, often TV's and opportunities to socialise etc...its more than innocent (other than making some mistakes like any human) have which i really dont think is fair.

Its quite a difficult debate really in serious horrible murders its easy to say kill them, but is that the kind of society we want - a life for a life and a easy escape for the criminal. Especially when you see the homeless on the street who have nothing it doesnt seem right paying to keep the "scum" alive, prisoners even have regular health checks to keep them healthy - probably more so than even us!

Overall in most cases i really dont think capital punishment is right because things can and have gone wrong and have led to the innocent being killed unecessarily. But i really think the prison system should toughen up and actually act as a punishment, 25+ years of reasonable living really doesnt justify the life of the victim and the people close to them. I do think the way forward is controlled confrontations/discussions between the families of the victim and the prisoner so they can try to help with closure and understand how their actions have hurt more than just the victim.

Edit - has anyone seen the brave one with jodie foster?

[barcelonic]

Simon i agree that our system is far too lenient. And i too am against the death penalty. But thats about as much as i can agree with you on because I just feel that you need only look to other countries where capital and even corporal punishment is used, to see that there isn't a single thing we can do to our criminals, no matter how vile and twisted, that would deter them from committing crime.

So i think the whole concept of punishment for the purpose of deterrance should be forgotten now. If we want to punish for revenge then it leads back to what I was saying before about not making laws based on emotions but on logical sense.

So I have ruled out two of the four - deterrance and retribution. The only two reasons which remain are the ones I feel are far more valid - protection and rehabilitation.

Nobody has mentioned the issue of protection yet. By that I mean the protection of society. This is a very valid reason for incarceration in my opinion, far more so than punishment. Most criminals will reoffend because we do not care about rehabilitating our criminals and not enough is done to stop reoffending. Therefore we need to consider the possibility of locking certain criminals away for far longer in order to protect our society from their crimes. Human rights gets in the way of this, and rightfully so, but at present our system is far too lenient. One particular things that annoys me more than anything else is that you can rape somebody and be out in a few years but if you rob a bank you go down for 20 years! The powers that be are OK with us wronging each other but when you steal their money you steal some of the power from the system and they hate that so the lengthiest jail sentences are always handed out from crimes involving money - specifically stealing money from banks, government etc...

The final reason is rehabilitation, which I believe should be the primary focus of all governments when it comes to crime. I won't go on about that here because I've discussed my views on this in previous posts in this thread.

[mcgrou]

Originally Posted by harvez

oh and Mcgrou if your going to start a debate at least voice your own opinion in the opening post instead of just thinking of a topic which will get a response i could open dozens a day like that but what would be the point.

I was sorting through my school books from the last year and saw this question. I was interested to see everyone elses opinions, I already knew my own.

As you asked, I'm against Capital Punishment. We teach that murder is wrong it is against the law to kill; so killing people ourselves is not a good method of punishment. Also, you mention the money involved in keeping a prisoner in jail for life - as Barce has already mentioned, the amount appeals etc mean that a death sentence does not mean you will be sent straight the electric chair... it can take over 10-15 years before someone is finally sentenced. The appeals and court cases are expensive in themeselves.

Also, what would happen if you convicted someone entirely innocent. How injust would it be for someone get convicted for a crime, executed, then to find new evidence afterwards that suggests he was innocent?

The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent either, the states that still use it in the USA have no less crime than the other states, in fact I remember being told that on average their crime rates are higher.

Of course, if I was emotionally involved to the crime/victim, as Jonno mentioned, my views would probably differ.

[bmh16]

Since when does anyone have the right to decide whether someone should live or not. Those people annoy me great you see because no one has that right. If someone kills someone, punish them, but by putting them in jail.